White Wolf vs. Sony - by Arislyn on 09:28 09 Sep 2003
Yup. In case you hadn't heard, White Wolf is suing Sony over the new movie "Underworld". It seems they are not pleased by the whole vampire - werewolf love story and feel that their copyright is being infringed.
Personally, I like Penny Arcade's take on the whole thing.
(OOoOoo...I'm seriously crossing genre lines here...Horror! RPG! Comics!)
If you want to read White Wolf's announcement, it is here. But, trust me...PA is more entertaining.
Yup. In case you hadn't heard, White Wolf is suing Sony over the new movie "Underworld". It seems they are not pleased by the whole vampire - werewolf love story and feel that their copyright is being infringed.
Personally, I like Penny Arcade's take on the whole thing.
(OOoOoo...I'm seriously crossing genre lines here...Horror! RPG! Comics!)
If you want to read White Wolf's announcement, it is here. But, trust me...PA is more entertaining.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Brad on 10:01 09 Sep 2003
LOL! That Penny Arcade article is a fun read.
It really sound to me like White Wolf is advertising by lawsuit. They will get publicity and sell off their remaining inventory of Vamp. and WW manuals. It is like getting in on a movie tie-in without paying the liscense fees.
LOL! That Penny Arcade article is a fun read.
It really sound to me like White Wolf is advertising by lawsuit. They will get publicity and sell off their remaining inventory of Vamp. and WW manuals. It is like getting in on a movie tie-in without paying the liscense fees.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Haruchai on 14:58 09 Sep 2003
Yeah, that's true Brad, but if WotC did the same thing if there was a fantasy-type movie coming out, then people would jump all over them.
I just don't understand the anti-WotC mentality. I'm not saying it is wrong, or even right....
Yeah, that's true Brad, but if WotC did the same thing if there was a fantasy-type movie coming out, then people would jump all over them.
I just don't understand the anti-WotC mentality. I'm not saying it is wrong, or even right....
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Brad on 15:45 09 Sep 2003
Can't say I'm pro or anti WW. I think some of their World of Darkness ideas are way cool, or er, way "dark". I think they have been far more creative than WoTC on almost everything.
Although some of their books I like better than others. I like their Vampire mythos and Wraith especially.
Can't say I'm pro or anti WW. I think some of their World of Darkness ideas are way cool, or er, way "dark".
I think they have been far more creative than WoTC on almost everything.Although some of their books I like better than others. I like their Vampire mythos and Wraith especially.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Haruchai on 19:37 09 Sep 2003
Hmmmm....
I like White Wolf games. *shrugs* And, maybe they are more creative than WotC. I don't think that has any bearing on my statement.
In my opinion, if there was a movie that had many parallels to WotC material, and WotC did the same thing that WW has done, then you'd hear a big public outcry about WotC bullying and pushing their weight around.
Why?
Simply because they're WotC.
I guess this whole mess just rubs me the wrong way because even though I am not pro or anti WotC, I see a lot of WotC bashing.
By whom? ..... Gamers.
On the one hand gamers sometimes seem to be a very close-knit group of folks. Otoh, I see more favortism and bashing between gamers than most any other hobby. From "my game genre is better than your game genre" and "my game system is better than your game system", to attacks from roleplayers vs. hack n' slashers...
Gamers are not an accepting bunch of people. Not that I've seen. You'd think that, in a type of game that a lot of people don't understand, there would be a lot of unity. And, in a lot of cases there are. But I'm seeing more "anti-gamer gamers" than ever before.
Ok, maybe I'm just ranting...
Hmmmm....
I like White Wolf games. *shrugs* And, maybe they are more creative than WotC. I don't think that has any bearing on my statement.
In my opinion, if there was a movie that had many parallels to WotC material, and WotC did the same thing that WW has done, then you'd hear a big public outcry about WotC bullying and pushing their weight around.
Why?
Simply because they're WotC.
I guess this whole mess just rubs me the wrong way because even though I am not pro or anti WotC, I see a lot of WotC bashing.
By whom? ..... Gamers.
On the one hand gamers sometimes seem to be a very close-knit group of folks. Otoh, I see more favortism and bashing between gamers than most any other hobby. From "my game genre is better than your game genre" and "my game system is better than your game system", to attacks from roleplayers vs. hack n' slashers...
Gamers are not an accepting bunch of people. Not that I've seen. You'd think that, in a type of game that a lot of people don't understand, there would be a lot of unity. And, in a lot of cases there are. But I'm seeing more "anti-gamer gamers" than ever before.
Ok, maybe I'm just ranting...
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Arislyn on 21:35 09 Sep 2003
*chuckles* I searched and searched through the PvP archives for a certain strip that I saw which sums up my feelings on the whole issue. Unfortunately, after an hour, I got tired of looking for it. But, I have the hard copy here in my hand, courtesy of PvP Issue #2 (Image Comics). So, I'll give ya the text without benefit of Scott Kurtz's cool artwork.
Brent: I hear that you are reading 'Fellowship' for the first time. I envy you, young Ottoman.
Francis: Yeah, well, no offense to you or Cole, but I don't know what you see in this Tolkien guy. This whole book is a blatant rip-off of Dungeons and Dragons. The halfling thief, the ranger, elves....Tolkien is a total HACK!
Brent: Yeah. Wizards of the Coast should sue his sorry a$$.
Francis: That's what I'm saying.
------
Look, the whole suing this is just...well...silly. Unless they have proof that specific sections were taken from their stories or that specific clans, tribes, etc. were used, then they haven't got a leg to stand on. You can't copyright vampires or werewolves. You can't copyright the genre of 'love story'.
I think the gamer clique-iness is a different issue altogether. In my opinion, it doesn't have anything to do with WotC or WW or any other game system/company. It just has to do with gamers themselves. I think that if it wasn't WotC being singled out as the big baddie, it would be whoever else held their marketing/business slot in the world if they didn't exist.
Gamers can be snobs. I see it all the time. In fact, I can't say that I haven't been guilty of it myself now and again. It's hard to remain completely neutral about all things, at all times.
Personally, I think it is just human nature to form these cliques. Everyone wants to feel special, superior in some way, shape or form. By declaring your way as being the better way, then you are affirming yourself and by finding others who support your idea, then you further strengthen your own perception of being better. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing. I just think that that is the way human beings are....especially among competitive sorts. As much as I like to think of roleplaying as being a cooperative affair, there is a ton of competitiveness between gamers.
I would imagine that such competition is quite open among the hack-n'-slashers. But among the 'true roleplayers' (and I use the term loosely) it can be very passive-aggressive, I think. Very catty and back-biting.
*chuckles and shrugs* I don't know. It's just my 2 coppers worth....
*chuckles* I searched and searched through the PvP archives for a certain strip that I saw which sums up my feelings on the whole issue. Unfortunately, after an hour, I got tired of looking for it. But, I have the hard copy here in my hand, courtesy of PvP Issue #2 (Image Comics). So, I'll give ya the text without benefit of Scott Kurtz's cool artwork.
Brent: I hear that you are reading 'Fellowship' for the first time. I envy you, young Ottoman.
Francis: Yeah, well, no offense to you or Cole, but I don't know what you see in this Tolkien guy. This whole book is a blatant rip-off of Dungeons and Dragons. The halfling thief, the ranger, elves....Tolkien is a total HACK!
Brent: Yeah. Wizards of the Coast should sue his sorry a$$.
Francis: That's what I'm saying.
------
Look, the whole suing this is just...well...silly. Unless they have proof that specific sections were taken from their stories or that specific clans, tribes, etc. were used, then they haven't got a leg to stand on. You can't copyright vampires or werewolves. You can't copyright the genre of 'love story'.
I think the gamer clique-iness is a different issue altogether. In my opinion, it doesn't have anything to do with WotC or WW or any other game system/company. It just has to do with gamers themselves. I think that if it wasn't WotC being singled out as the big baddie, it would be whoever else held their marketing/business slot in the world if they didn't exist.
Gamers can be snobs. I see it all the time. In fact, I can't say that I haven't been guilty of it myself now and again. It's hard to remain completely neutral about all things, at all times.
Personally, I think it is just human nature to form these cliques. Everyone wants to feel special, superior in some way, shape or form. By declaring your way as being the better way, then you are affirming yourself and by finding others who support your idea, then you further strengthen your own perception of being better. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing. I just think that that is the way human beings are....especially among competitive sorts. As much as I like to think of roleplaying as being a cooperative affair, there is a ton of competitiveness between gamers.
I would imagine that such competition is quite open among the hack-n'-slashers. But among the 'true roleplayers' (and I use the term loosely) it can be very passive-aggressive, I think. Very catty and back-biting.
*chuckles and shrugs* I don't know. It's just my 2 coppers worth....
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Brad on 22:01 09 Sep 2003
This is why gangs get formed. Byzantium had street gangs of youths. And the problem may be much older.
Now rpg-er gangs can be dangerous. But if there is a rapid change of temperature their eye-glasses will fog up and they will be helpless. Strike as if prone. 
| Quote |
| Personally, I think it is just human nature to form these cliques. Everyone wants to feel special, superior in some way, shape or form. |
This is why gangs get formed. Byzantium had street gangs of youths. And the problem may be much older.
Now rpg-er gangs can be dangerous. But if there is a rapid change of temperature their eye-glasses will fog up and they will be helpless.
Strike as if prone. White Wolf vs. Sony - by Arislyn on 22:06 09 Sep 2003
There is no saving throw!!!
| Quote (Brad @ Sep. 09 2003,19:01) |
| Strike as if prone. |
There is no saving throw!!!
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Arislyn on 08:06 22 Sep 2003
White Wolf has released an updated press release concerning the lawsuit.
http://www.white-wolf.com/News/underworldrelease2.html
*Edited to correct "teh" to "the". I don't write teh to be cool. I do it because I'm dyslexic.
White Wolf has released an updated press release concerning the lawsuit.
http://www.white-wolf.com/News/underworldrelease2.html
*Edited to correct "teh" to "the". I don't write teh to be cool. I do it because I'm dyslexic.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Brad on 11:24 22 Sep 2003
Hmm, I have not seen the movie, but if they did a full scale copy of WW World of Darkness mythos then they might have a point. I guess I would be a bit upset if I had created a whole world and culture based on Vampires and Werewolves and then had a studio copy it for a film without attribution or compensation.
But that leaves some room for hair splitting. There is a lot of "prior art" that WW itself used for the World of Darkness. I also think some bits and pieces of WoD inspired elements of Buffy tVS mythos and others, so it is hard to know where the limits are.
Hmm, I have not seen the movie, but if they did a full scale copy of WW World of Darkness mythos then they might have a point. I guess I would be a bit upset if I had created a whole world and culture based on Vampires and Werewolves and then had a studio copy it for a film without attribution or compensation.
But that leaves some room for hair splitting. There is a lot of "prior art" that WW itself used for the World of Darkness. I also think some bits and pieces of WoD inspired elements of Buffy tVS mythos and others, so it is hard to know where the limits are.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by Arislyn on 23:31 30 Sep 2003
Well, I went and saw Underworld over the weekend and, unless Sony has taken very specific points from certain WW novels (none of which I have read), I don't think WW really has a case.
In case any of you are going to see Underworld, I'll put some spaces below so you can miss the spoiler. There is only one statement below that is intregal to the plot, but it's a big one. So, I'll treat this like any other spoiler thread.
POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW...
Okay, first of all, the Underworld evolution of vampire/werewolf society is completely different from WW. Unless I am mistaken, werewolves were never the vampires' daylight guardians in WW, nor were they enslaved by vampires..and content with their lot, on top of that. I'm pretty sure that the werewolf/vampire war was always there.
Secondly, both the vampires and werewolves were homogenous. There were no separate clans/tribes that I could tell. All of them seemed to have the same powers and none of them seemed more inclined towards one thing than another. I.e. no artsy vampires, no feral vampires, no obvious nosferatu....that sort of thing.
I saw no indications of a Sabbat vs. Camarilla.
I saw no indications of Black Spiral Dancers or any sort of "tainting of the earth.."
I saw nothing at all that, at first glance, would indicate to me that Underworld was a rip-off of WW. However, as I said, I have not read any of their novels, so it could be that something was pulled from one of those stories and not the actual game world itself.
If anyone else has read any of them, maybe you can let us know what you think.
Well, I went and saw Underworld over the weekend and, unless Sony has taken very specific points from certain WW novels (none of which I have read), I don't think WW really has a case.
In case any of you are going to see Underworld, I'll put some spaces below so you can miss the spoiler.
There is only one statement below that is intregal to the plot, but it's a big one. So, I'll treat this like any other spoiler thread. POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW...
Okay, first of all, the Underworld evolution of vampire/werewolf society is completely different from WW. Unless I am mistaken, werewolves were never the vampires' daylight guardians in WW, nor were they enslaved by vampires..and content with their lot, on top of that. I'm pretty sure that the werewolf/vampire war was always there.
Secondly, both the vampires and werewolves were homogenous. There were no separate clans/tribes that I could tell. All of them seemed to have the same powers and none of them seemed more inclined towards one thing than another. I.e. no artsy vampires, no feral vampires, no obvious nosferatu....that sort of thing.
I saw no indications of a Sabbat vs. Camarilla.
I saw no indications of Black Spiral Dancers or any sort of "tainting of the earth.."
I saw nothing at all that, at first glance, would indicate to me that Underworld was a rip-off of WW. However, as I said, I have not read any of their novels, so it could be that something was pulled from one of those stories and not the actual game world itself.
If anyone else has read any of them, maybe you can let us know what you think.
White Wolf vs. Sony - by din on 08:35 09 Jan 2004
continued spoilage
i rented Underworld the other day. I had been interested in seeing it but missed it in theaters. I had read this post a while ago and it stuck in my mind while watching the movie for the first time.
There are many differences between the WoD and Underworld. The only true thing they have in common is they both have werewolves (A term used twice in the movie) and Vampires. Besides comparing to WoD I had flashbacks to grade school and Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein, the first true clash between vampires and werewolves in my mind.
The vampires aren't even really undead, they can be in a full dorment state, but several scenes showed Vamp hearts beating, them breathing heavily etc. In the writer/director commentary they mentioned several times breaking with vampire convention as a mythological creature and making it more science fiction. (maybe along the lines of the Blade movies). Werewolves have a burning allegergic reaction to silver and the vampires cannot stand UV. Most telling is vampires have reflections.
Both vamps and lycans are products of a virus that came into being long ago and are related by a common ancestor.
A main background plot of the movie is attempts on reuniting the lycan and vampire bloodlines to create an Uber-creature, which drives most of the main characters into racial purity reactions and catches the protagonists in the middle.
The movie itself was smartly written, directed, and acted. It is more action than sci-fi/horror.
continued spoilage
i rented Underworld the other day. I had been interested in seeing it but missed it in theaters. I had read this post a while ago and it stuck in my mind while watching the movie for the first time.
There are many differences between the WoD and Underworld. The only true thing they have in common is they both have werewolves (A term used twice in the movie) and Vampires. Besides comparing to WoD I had flashbacks to grade school and Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein, the first true clash between vampires and werewolves in my mind.
The vampires aren't even really undead, they can be in a full dorment state, but several scenes showed Vamp hearts beating, them breathing heavily etc. In the writer/director commentary they mentioned several times breaking with vampire convention as a mythological creature and making it more science fiction. (maybe along the lines of the Blade movies). Werewolves have a burning allegergic reaction to silver and the vampires cannot stand UV. Most telling is vampires have reflections.
Both vamps and lycans are products of a virus that came into being long ago and are related by a common ancestor.
A main background plot of the movie is attempts on reuniting the lycan and vampire bloodlines to create an Uber-creature, which drives most of the main characters into racial purity reactions and catches the protagonists in the middle.
The movie itself was smartly written, directed, and acted. It is more action than sci-fi/horror.