Thinking Machines - by Arislyn on 14:10 01 Aug 2002
Is it a good idea to actively strive towards creating machines that can actually think and reason?
That's an interesting question because of all the other questions that arise from it. How, exactly, does one measure reasoning? I'm sure that there are psychologists out there that can give a good definition, I just don't know what that definition may be right off the top of my head. And, does the capability to reason automatically mean that the being is self-aware?
I know there are plenty of sci-fi novels out there that deal with this particular topic, such as Aasimov's "I, Robot" and it is touched on briefly as historical background in the "Dune" novels. Unfortunately, it's been ages since I've read them.
What is everyone's thought on this?
Is it a good idea to actively strive towards creating machines that can actually think and reason?
That's an interesting question because of all the other questions that arise from it. How, exactly, does one measure reasoning? I'm sure that there are psychologists out there that can give a good definition, I just don't know what that definition may be right off the top of my head. And, does the capability to reason automatically mean that the being is self-aware?
I know there are plenty of sci-fi novels out there that deal with this particular topic, such as Aasimov's "I, Robot" and it is touched on briefly as historical background in the "Dune" novels. Unfortunately, it's been ages since I've read them.
What is everyone's thought on this?
Thinking Machines - by din on 15:55 01 Aug 2002
i've been thinking about something along this lines for a a little bit ... i think the self awareness / reasoning machine / learning machine is a issue that has a little while before it becomes science fact ... everytime they make a new discovery about how the brain may work, not just human brains but even down to insects, just typing or walking or spinning web are proceedures so complex that it takes years to build a machine to do one of them ... stops self from rambling on ...
anyway i think as a society issue it will be a non issue on a personal level. we give emotional attachment and personality to everything in our lives anyway, i do not think higher level machines will be different.
i think that will be on a personal level, on a level of lawmakers and policies in government ... will machines be allowed to vote, will there be 'laws of robotics' ? maybe ... will they hold citizenship? i do not think so .. at least not easily. They can be self aware all day , but you will never be able to prove it. at least by our standards.
and for the sci-fi reference Data on STNG had to go through Star Fleet Academy and use the fact that he was a bona fide member of Star Fleet to parley past the fact he was just a mchine and 'may' be sentient.
*singing *
R-A-M-B-L-I-N ... Ramblin'
i've been thinking about something along this lines for a a little bit ... i think the self awareness / reasoning machine / learning machine is a issue that has a little while before it becomes science fact ... everytime they make a new discovery about how the brain may work, not just human brains but even down to insects, just typing or walking or spinning web are proceedures so complex that it takes years to build a machine to do one of them ... stops self from rambling on ...
anyway i think as a society issue it will be a non issue on a personal level. we give emotional attachment and personality to everything in our lives anyway, i do not think higher level machines will be different.
i think that will be on a personal level, on a level of lawmakers and policies in government ... will machines be allowed to vote, will there be 'laws of robotics' ? maybe ... will they hold citizenship? i do not think so .. at least not easily. They can be self aware all day , but you will never be able to prove it. at least by our standards.
and for the sci-fi reference Data on STNG had to go through Star Fleet Academy and use the fact that he was a bona fide member of Star Fleet to parley past the fact he was just a mchine and 'may' be sentient.
*singing *
R-A-M-B-L-I-N ... Ramblin'
Thinking Machines - by Arislyn on 07:31 02 Aug 2002
I agree with you about how it would affect most people on a personal level. Heck, I've given my car a name and personality. I'm positive that if it could actually think and communicate with me, I'd just accept as a part of my family. (Albiet, an old, cranky part of my family with a major leakage problem....)
Aside from the legal problems, I think that reasoning machines would cause the same problems within the religious sect. A lot of people would argue that since these things were not made by God, but by man, then they do not have a soul. Therefore, they can't be alive. And, it brings forth a lot of the same ethical and moral questions that cloning would. (Many people argue the same thing about clones - man made = no soul therefore not a real person). So, you have a living, thinking creature that many people would have no problem harvesting for parts. It would cease to be murder because something without a soul could not truly be killed.
I agree with you about how it would affect most people on a personal level. Heck, I've given my car a name and personality. I'm positive that if it could actually think and communicate with me, I'd just accept as a part of my family. (Albiet, an old, cranky part of my family with a major leakage problem....)
Aside from the legal problems, I think that reasoning machines would cause the same problems within the religious sect. A lot of people would argue that since these things were not made by God, but by man, then they do not have a soul. Therefore, they can't be alive. And, it brings forth a lot of the same ethical and moral questions that cloning would. (Many people argue the same thing about clones - man made = no soul therefore not a real person). So, you have a living, thinking creature that many people would have no problem harvesting for parts. It would cease to be murder because something without a soul could not truly be killed.
Thinking Machines - by Brad on 07:54 02 Aug 2002
This is just a different aspect of man's facination with creating Life. Mankind captured reason and fire and rose above the animals. If we can create ... Life ... our own power will be closer to that of the Creator.
Gollums, Frankenstein, cloneing, AI ... they are all speaking to the same sort of thing: God created life and we want that same power!
This is just a different aspect of man's facination with creating Life. Mankind captured reason and fire and rose above the animals. If we can create ... Life ... our own power will be closer to that of the Creator.
Gollums, Frankenstein, cloneing, AI ... they are all speaking to the same sort of thing: God created life and we want that same power!
Thinking Machines - by Arislyn on 12:46 02 Aug 2002
*nods* I definitely understand what you are saying there, Brad. I think a lot of people do desire the ability to create life. However, on a purely personal level, I can't imagine wanting that kind of power. "With great power comes great responsibility." I can't even make myself clean out the cat boxes at a regular time each day, much less direct the growth and development of new life. (Which is why I don't have kids, btw. :P )
*nods* I definitely understand what you are saying there, Brad. I think a lot of people do desire the ability to create life. However, on a purely personal level, I can't imagine wanting that kind of power. "With great power comes great responsibility." I can't even make myself clean out the cat boxes at a regular time each day, much less direct the growth and development of new life. (Which is why I don't have kids, btw. :P )
Thinking Machines - by Brad on 12:58 02 Aug 2002
I can understand that Arislyn, and I agree on a personal level. But there are many ways that we as a race of beings always want to challenge the powers that only the gods can have (or should have).
I think AI is our conceit. I don't think we will ever really accomplish it, We might create a good imitation of it but I doubt it will encompass true self awareness.
Still I was wrong about those Martian canals, so what do I know!
I can understand that Arislyn, and I agree on a personal level. But there are many ways that we as a race of beings always want to challenge the powers that only the gods can have (or should have).
I think AI is our conceit. I don't think we will ever really accomplish it, We might create a good imitation of it but I doubt it will encompass true self awareness.
Still I was wrong about those Martian canals, so what do I know!
Thinking Machines - by din on 23:32 03 Aug 2002
hehe, i create life all the time ... gotten to be a bad habit of mine i guess
i'm thinking now a little in terms of my own kids vs. a manmade life form ... hrrm .. i bet the man-made intellegence would be much easier to clean up after ...
hehe, i create life all the time ... gotten to be a bad habit of mine i guess
i'm thinking now a little in terms of my own kids vs. a manmade life form ... hrrm .. i bet the man-made intellegence would be much easier to clean up after ...
Thinking Machines - by Arislyn on 20:56 04 Aug 2002
*laughs* Hmmm....I guess I do, too, din. However, I really try quite hard not to think too deeply upon what may be growing either in my sink or fridge. *shudders* Oh, the terrible possibilities!!
(I think that could harken back to the De Profundis thread...)
*laughs* Hmmm....I guess I do, too, din. However, I really try quite hard not to think too deeply upon what may be growing either in my sink or fridge. *shudders* Oh, the terrible possibilities!!
(I think that could harken back to the De Profundis thread...)
Thinking Machines - by Haruchai on 01:29 05 Aug 2002
*wanders into thread, looks around, loses remaining sanity, crumples to the ground... drooling*
Cat boxes! Clones! AI! Cars! Oh, the humanity!
Haru
*wanders into thread, looks around, loses remaining sanity, crumples to the ground... drooling*
Cat boxes! Clones! AI! Cars! Oh, the humanity!
Haru
Thinking Machines - by Kainja on 18:05 06 Aug 2002
I'm coming in late, as is often the case I fear, but I thought I might reply because I am actually a psychologist in real life, a biological psychologist, not a clinical therapist. Even scientists don't have a good definition of reasoning, but it seems pretty clear that reasoning comes in all kinds of shades and levels, with humans at one end and insects that possess a few dozen neurons at the the other.
Clearly, cats and dogs and rats and birds reason. They just don't factor their own reasoning into their equations and they work with a limited range of possible options. There are, in fact, computers already that can reason at very simple levels, though none have approached human, or even cat abilities yet. I suspect that will come. I suspect that, in part, the complexity of human reasoning is based upon the huge number of possible connections and possible directions of eletrical flow in the human brain. To develop AI in a computer will probably require something similar. Not an easy task, but I don't think it's an impossible one.
As for what happens after? voting and souls and all that. Well, that would be another post.
I'm coming in late, as is often the case I fear, but I thought I might reply because I am actually a psychologist in real life, a biological psychologist, not a clinical therapist. Even scientists don't have a good definition of reasoning, but it seems pretty clear that reasoning comes in all kinds of shades and levels, with humans at one end and insects that possess a few dozen neurons at the the other.
Clearly, cats and dogs and rats and birds reason. They just don't factor their own reasoning into their equations and they work with a limited range of possible options. There are, in fact, computers already that can reason at very simple levels, though none have approached human, or even cat abilities yet. I suspect that will come. I suspect that, in part, the complexity of human reasoning is based upon the huge number of possible connections and possible directions of eletrical flow in the human brain. To develop AI in a computer will probably require something similar. Not an easy task, but I don't think it's an impossible one.
As for what happens after? voting and souls and all that. Well, that would be another post.
Thinking Machines - by din on 14:03 07 Aug 2002
http://din-timelines.com/cyclopedia/Turing_test.shtml
paste that before i forget. I was moving things around and deleting stuff at my stie and ran across this. it was new to me and reminded me about this thread.
i like to draw a thin wavy line between 'reasoning' and 'thinking' .. reasoning , was more problem solving, and trial and error learning and then thinking is contemplating God's navel and saying . "Y'know, i think time might just be relative to speed. hmmn." and " i know I exist cause i'm thinking about me ... but i'm not so sure bob exists just cause i'm thinking about Him."
i use 'reasoning' and 'thinking' quoted cause i'm sure there are better words to express these two types of thought ...
http://din-timelines.com/cyclopedia/Turing_test.shtml
paste that before i forget. I was moving things around and deleting stuff at my stie and ran across this. it was new to me and reminded me about this thread.
i like to draw a thin wavy line between 'reasoning' and 'thinking' .. reasoning , was more problem solving, and trial and error learning and then thinking is contemplating God's navel and saying . "Y'know, i think time might just be relative to speed. hmmn." and " i know I exist cause i'm thinking about me ... but i'm not so sure bob exists just cause i'm thinking about Him."
i use 'reasoning' and 'thinking' quoted cause i'm sure there are better words to express these two types of thought ...