Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by MoonHunter on 01:40 09 Mar 2003
I was on another board and I encountered a post that got me thinking. One mistake people make about science fiction is it's not really a genre. It's a setting. Mystery is a genre. Romance is a genre. Action/adventure is a genre. Thriller is a genre. You can do any of those things in a sci-fi world; you can do any of them in a swords & sorcery world. I thought about it a while and typed the following....
Science Fiction is part of the larger Speculative Fiction category. The Speculative Fiction cateogry includes what most people will call sci-fi and fantasy, with a small dip into horror. Speculative fiction category is used by many larger bookstores to lump sci-fi and fantasy together in one category so their staff do not have to make judgement calls on which book is which.
The main problem with the concept of genre is that it is fairly ill defined by the literary community, with problems compounded by its uses in the film, comic, and gaming communities.
The best generic definition is from Websters:
genre \Gen"re\, n. Kind; genus; class; form; style, esp. in literature.
A particular demand . . . that we shall pay special attention to the matter of genres -- that is, to the different forms or categories of literature. --W. P. Trent.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Working from that, Sci-fi defines any story revolving around Science, while Fantasy defines any story revolving around Magik. These are broad, sweeping, generalizations that I hope you all forgive me for. There are books that overlap Sci-Fi with psionics (the sci-fi codeword for magik) in it like Darkover and Pern and countless others. There are fantasy stories that have science (Mercede's Lackey's later Valdemar books had the impact of science- watchtowers and other things- on their world). Lets just stick to the generalization for the moment.
The Sci-Fi genre has the primary tropes of, or tends to deal with, science and technology, space and aliens, and the future (near or far). A story can have romantic, adventure, or mystery subplots or story arcs, but still focus on the one of the tropes listed above, and be in the science fiction genre. It is the focus that makes a story science fiction. Hard Science Fiction revolves around the Science. Soft scifi, tends to have "fuzzier" science. However, the focus of the sci-fi genre story needs to revolve around the science and technology (and people's response to it), space, aliens, or the future of humankind.
Asimov's Robot Detective series is sci-fi, even though they are mysteries because the mysteries revolve around the technology of robots.
A story can have these elements, but focus on something else. This would be stories that have a sci-fi setting, but have the tropes of another genre (romance, action, or mystery). There are dozens of romances set in fantasy, sci-fi, horror settings. We don't call them fantasy or sci-fi or horror, we call the Romance novels. It is all on the emphasis.
Star Trek stories tend to focus on the people and their interaction, with the technology/ science taking a back seat. Most episodes and books could be set in another time and place and still work as a story. Many Robin Cook and Cricton books are not sci-fi genre, but are definitively of the sci-fi setting.
Why this is my idea, does it jive for the rest of you? Am I off base? Opinions?
I was on another board and I encountered a post that got me thinking. One mistake people make about science fiction is it's not really a genre. It's a setting. Mystery is a genre. Romance is a genre. Action/adventure is a genre. Thriller is a genre. You can do any of those things in a sci-fi world; you can do any of them in a swords & sorcery world. I thought about it a while and typed the following....
Science Fiction is part of the larger Speculative Fiction category. The Speculative Fiction cateogry includes what most people will call sci-fi and fantasy, with a small dip into horror. Speculative fiction category is used by many larger bookstores to lump sci-fi and fantasy together in one category so their staff do not have to make judgement calls on which book is which.
The main problem with the concept of genre is that it is fairly ill defined by the literary community, with problems compounded by its uses in the film, comic, and gaming communities.
The best generic definition is from Websters:
genre \Gen"re\, n. Kind; genus; class; form; style, esp. in literature.
A particular demand . . . that we shall pay special attention to the matter of genres -- that is, to the different forms or categories of literature. --W. P. Trent.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Working from that, Sci-fi defines any story revolving around Science, while Fantasy defines any story revolving around Magik. These are broad, sweeping, generalizations that I hope you all forgive me for. There are books that overlap Sci-Fi with psionics (the sci-fi codeword for magik) in it like Darkover and Pern and countless others. There are fantasy stories that have science (Mercede's Lackey's later Valdemar books had the impact of science- watchtowers and other things- on their world). Lets just stick to the generalization for the moment.
The Sci-Fi genre has the primary tropes of, or tends to deal with, science and technology, space and aliens, and the future (near or far). A story can have romantic, adventure, or mystery subplots or story arcs, but still focus on the one of the tropes listed above, and be in the science fiction genre. It is the focus that makes a story science fiction. Hard Science Fiction revolves around the Science. Soft scifi, tends to have "fuzzier" science. However, the focus of the sci-fi genre story needs to revolve around the science and technology (and people's response to it), space, aliens, or the future of humankind.
Asimov's Robot Detective series is sci-fi, even though they are mysteries because the mysteries revolve around the technology of robots.
A story can have these elements, but focus on something else. This would be stories that have a sci-fi setting, but have the tropes of another genre (romance, action, or mystery). There are dozens of romances set in fantasy, sci-fi, horror settings. We don't call them fantasy or sci-fi or horror, we call the Romance novels. It is all on the emphasis.
Star Trek stories tend to focus on the people and their interaction, with the technology/ science taking a back seat. Most episodes and books could be set in another time and place and still work as a story. Many Robin Cook and Cricton books are not sci-fi genre, but are definitively of the sci-fi setting.
Why this is my idea, does it jive for the rest of you? Am I off base? Opinions?
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Brad on 08:58 09 Mar 2003
>>setting
Sorta. The general public does not really care. We inside the industry like to define things.
I'll give you an example: I can make the case that Star Wars is really a fantasy movie, and not really scifi. People are running around with the magical "Force", swords, Princesses, etc. The technology is just a thin veneer laid over what is essentially a fantasy/pulp epic. But, in the end, it is immaterial because they can all be covered under the big tent of speculative fiction.
What we are seeing over the last 15 years is a blurring of the lines between genres. Buffy tVS is horror with some crossover, into scifi, and fantasy (and musicals?). Firefly was a cross between scifi and westerns.
It is interesting to see what the Open Directory Project lists as "genres" and related:
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Genres/
>>soft scifi
Tends to examine social issues: Not so much, how to make the rocket, but what effect rockets have on society. Asimov tended to be soft scifi whereas Arthur C. Clarke tended towards hard scifi, although even with them there is overlap.
Ack I'm babbling.
>>setting
Sorta. The general public does not really care. We inside the industry like to define things.
I'll give you an example: I can make the case that Star Wars is really a fantasy movie, and not really scifi. People are running around with the magical "Force", swords, Princesses, etc. The technology is just a thin veneer laid over what is essentially a fantasy/pulp epic. But, in the end, it is immaterial because they can all be covered under the big tent of speculative fiction.
What we are seeing over the last 15 years is a blurring of the lines between genres. Buffy tVS is horror with some crossover, into scifi, and fantasy (and musicals?). Firefly was a cross between scifi and westerns.
It is interesting to see what the Open Directory Project lists as "genres" and related:
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Genres/
>>soft scifi
Tends to examine social issues: Not so much, how to make the rocket, but what effect rockets have on society. Asimov tended to be soft scifi whereas Arthur C. Clarke tended towards hard scifi, although even with them there is overlap.
Ack I'm babbling.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Emperor TAR-1 on 14:18 11 Mar 2003
This is interesting to me as a writer, merely because I'm required to categorize my work with the publisher.
I write murder mysteries that use detection through computer science -- so is that SF? I have my own robot detectives (without those "laws of robotics" that Ike used).
I consider anything in the Maita series SF, because the premise of the series is an intelligent spaceship (Maita). I include stories, such as "Heku", where different racial conceptions are the theme, and others, such as those with Tlorg, contain magic elements ("magic is unexplained science") and are humor, more than much else. I use extra-planal beings, such as Kurk. I use transmats and FTL travel, which are fantasy or magic until such time as we can do them, then they're science. My robot detectives (as well as other heroes) solve a murder here and there (Murder Khlien Style, etc.), and have mostly action-adventure books in the series (Tristar, etc.) as well as straight slapstick humor (Odd Couple Out, etc.)
Over a period of centuries, my heroes "grow up" from the almost juvenile first book to the 44th book.
I believe labels as to "genre" or "type" serve a vague purpose to the reader, but are artificial. It is all art (no smart remarks!) of one level or another. E-books leave us the option of reading a chapter or so to know if we want to continue, if the work is what we personally prefer. It is no longer necessary for those who do NOT care for fantasy to believe they are paying ten bucks for a book labelled SF, but find it is based on fantasy.
This is interesting to me as a writer, merely because I'm required to categorize my work with the publisher.
I write murder mysteries that use detection through computer science -- so is that SF? I have my own robot detectives (without those "laws of robotics" that Ike used).
I consider anything in the Maita series SF, because the premise of the series is an intelligent spaceship (Maita). I include stories, such as "Heku", where different racial conceptions are the theme, and others, such as those with Tlorg, contain magic elements ("magic is unexplained science") and are humor, more than much else. I use extra-planal beings, such as Kurk. I use transmats and FTL travel, which are fantasy or magic until such time as we can do them, then they're science. My robot detectives (as well as other heroes) solve a murder here and there (Murder Khlien Style, etc.), and have mostly action-adventure books in the series (Tristar, etc.) as well as straight slapstick humor (Odd Couple Out, etc.)
Over a period of centuries, my heroes "grow up" from the almost juvenile first book to the 44th book.
I believe labels as to "genre" or "type" serve a vague purpose to the reader, but are artificial. It is all art (no smart remarks!) of one level or another. E-books leave us the option of reading a chapter or so to know if we want to continue, if the work is what we personally prefer. It is no longer necessary for those who do NOT care for fantasy to believe they are paying ten bucks for a book labelled SF, but find it is based on fantasy.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Brad on 20:28 11 Mar 2003
Oh yeah, publishers and retailers really like their categories, they hate anything that strattles the line.
When viewed as a whole the speculative fiction field is a very large tent.
Oh yeah, publishers and retailers really like their categories, they hate anything that strattles the line.
When viewed as a whole the speculative fiction field is a very large tent.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Kainja on 00:11 12 Mar 2003
Speculative fiction is really just too broad a term it seems to me, although I understand the drive behind coming up with something that could cover the range of SF, Fantasy and horror. I tend to collect books in all three of those fields and I usually have no trouble separating them for myself but I'm sure that if I gave the same books to a dozen other collectors they would arrange them at least slighlty differently.
And then there are people like Robert E. Howard, who wrote in many different genres. Yet I put all his books together and lump them in fantasy because that's where I feel he best fits.
Genres are fun to argue about, if nothing else, and I tend to use them broadly to guide my browsing for books, if not my purchases.
Speculative fiction is really just too broad a term it seems to me, although I understand the drive behind coming up with something that could cover the range of SF, Fantasy and horror. I tend to collect books in all three of those fields and I usually have no trouble separating them for myself but I'm sure that if I gave the same books to a dozen other collectors they would arrange them at least slighlty differently.
And then there are people like Robert E. Howard, who wrote in many different genres. Yet I put all his books together and lump them in fantasy because that's where I feel he best fits.
Genres are fun to argue about, if nothing else, and I tend to use them broadly to guide my browsing for books, if not my purchases.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by MoonHunter on 03:19 12 Mar 2003
People say these categories really don't matter... but how many of you have reshelved a book at a store (or pointed it out to a clerk) that the book was in the wrong section? Lets put aside those times it was not under the spec fic umbrella. (I had a long talk with some BN clerks that not all Tom Clancy books were thriller fiction.) I have found most people like orderly categories of some kind.
People say these categories really don't matter... but how many of you have reshelved a book at a store (or pointed it out to a clerk) that the book was in the wrong section? Lets put aside those times it was not under the spec fic umbrella. (I had a long talk with some BN clerks that not all Tom Clancy books were thriller fiction.) I have found most people like orderly categories of some kind.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Emperor TAR-1 on 09:21 12 Mar 2003
We tend to want to put authors into a category, and that is where a lot of the problems arise. When you say "Isaac Asimov" you think of SF, and sometimes hard science -- but how many know he wrote a few murder mysteries? Tony Boucher was very good in suspense novels, but wrote some as good SF.
Book stores and libraries do this, and it ill serves the reading public AND the author. Our penchant to label things can, as so much we do, go too far.
We tend to want to put authors into a category, and that is where a lot of the problems arise. When you say "Isaac Asimov" you think of SF, and sometimes hard science -- but how many know he wrote a few murder mysteries? Tony Boucher was very good in suspense novels, but wrote some as good SF.
Book stores and libraries do this, and it ill serves the reading public AND the author. Our penchant to label things can, as so much we do, go too far.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by NoonChild on 10:20 12 Mar 2003
Categorisation is an essential part of human psychology. We do it all the time as we build info in to our brains. But our brains differ from the labeled shelves in a bookshop because as we learn our neurons connect in new ways. It's like an automatic crossreference that allows us to extend beyond simple classification - and in fact has lead to this debate!!
Personally I dont really classify myself as a Sci-fi or fantasy fan, because what I'm interested in is philosophical writing. Of course technology and science bring up new philosophical questions and sometimes solutions to age old ones, and fantasy allows us to conceive of a world unlike the one we perceive as reality (a philosophical tool we can thank Descartes for).
....oh yeah...welcome to Emperor TAR-1!!...I got a bit carried away there sorry. I'm quite new here too.
Categorisation is an essential part of human psychology. We do it all the time as we build info in to our brains. But our brains differ from the labeled shelves in a bookshop because as we learn our neurons connect in new ways. It's like an automatic crossreference that allows us to extend beyond simple classification - and in fact has lead to this debate!!
Personally I dont really classify myself as a Sci-fi or fantasy fan, because what I'm interested in is philosophical writing. Of course technology and science bring up new philosophical questions and sometimes solutions to age old ones, and fantasy allows us to conceive of a world unlike the one we perceive as reality (a philosophical tool we can thank Descartes for).
....oh yeah...welcome to Emperor TAR-1!!...I got a bit carried away there sorry. I'm quite new here too.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Emperor TAR-1 on 10:48 12 Mar 2003
Thanks, Noonchild.
My argument really is that my label doesn't fit your system, and vice versa, and that we tend to forget that an author is not restricted by a given label to producing only that form.
(I left out that Ike also wrote some very good poetry, and VERY few know that, except the humorous ones)
I've written several books that deal with alien psychology, and even with what a plant might think, and how that would interact with animal thought. The series depends on those differences for tension, in many cases. I've tried to project how a machine would think, and how different thought patterns and imperatives will interact. I have an "all good" race, the Zulians, and an "all bad" race, the Immins. Because of my own psychology, the good always eventually wins, but the reality is that such is not the case in life.
It is amazingly difficult, because one tends to insert his own ideas, which defeats the purpose.
I also work through the murder mysteries by describing a situation, then giving each character a set personality, and acting always within those limitations. I seldom know who the killer will turn out to be until near the end (except in the Nick Storie novels, because Nick learns who the killer is early, and has to find a way to prove it). I have to keep all clues in mind as I go, so that I can see the logic of the solution. I wrote one where the solution was on page twelve, and it was a clue that stated only one person could have committed the crime, but it was not obvious, even to me, when I wrote it.
I wrote one CD Grimes novel where he never solved it. That happens in reality, too. Because of the psychology of the various characters, the crime wouldn't be solved, so it wasn't.
I am saying the psychology of the characters is vital. In real life, we don't jump from asteroid to asteroid in a space suit (Not to mention that we would have to be capable of jumping an average of 29,800 miles), and we don't jump from a burning plane to land on a haystack, roll off into a sexy sports car, chase the villain to the top of a watertank, have a gun battle with an uzi and a twenty two, get shot six times, each shot missing the heart 1/4", subdue the crook and toss him off the tank, go to the hospital for four Band-Aids on the bullet wound, then fade out in bed with a sex queen. Not even psychology makes those things readable -- or watchable.
Thanks, Noonchild.
My argument really is that my label doesn't fit your system, and vice versa, and that we tend to forget that an author is not restricted by a given label to producing only that form.
(I left out that Ike also wrote some very good poetry, and VERY few know that, except the humorous ones)
I've written several books that deal with alien psychology, and even with what a plant might think, and how that would interact with animal thought. The series depends on those differences for tension, in many cases. I've tried to project how a machine would think, and how different thought patterns and imperatives will interact. I have an "all good" race, the Zulians, and an "all bad" race, the Immins. Because of my own psychology, the good always eventually wins, but the reality is that such is not the case in life.
It is amazingly difficult, because one tends to insert his own ideas, which defeats the purpose.
I also work through the murder mysteries by describing a situation, then giving each character a set personality, and acting always within those limitations. I seldom know who the killer will turn out to be until near the end (except in the Nick Storie novels, because Nick learns who the killer is early, and has to find a way to prove it). I have to keep all clues in mind as I go, so that I can see the logic of the solution. I wrote one where the solution was on page twelve, and it was a clue that stated only one person could have committed the crime, but it was not obvious, even to me, when I wrote it.
I wrote one CD Grimes novel where he never solved it. That happens in reality, too. Because of the psychology of the various characters, the crime wouldn't be solved, so it wasn't.
I am saying the psychology of the characters is vital. In real life, we don't jump from asteroid to asteroid in a space suit (Not to mention that we would have to be capable of jumping an average of 29,800 miles), and we don't jump from a burning plane to land on a haystack, roll off into a sexy sports car, chase the villain to the top of a watertank, have a gun battle with an uzi and a twenty two, get shot six times, each shot missing the heart 1/4", subdue the crook and toss him off the tank, go to the hospital for four Band-Aids on the bullet wound, then fade out in bed with a sex queen. Not even psychology makes those things readable -- or watchable.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by NoonChild on 10:58 12 Mar 2003
I read a book recently where the main voice was an ancient pot! Well it was a kind of being that could metamorphasise in to innanimate objects, and at the moment was an ancient pot. This allowed him to travel and collect the stories of all the lives he witnessed. I know which of my friends would enjoy the book and which would not. But how would I classify it? I'm not sure I care!!
Emperor TAR-1 have you ever written the psychology of a sentient vase?
I read a book recently where the main voice was an ancient pot! Well it was a kind of being that could metamorphasise in to innanimate objects, and at the moment was an ancient pot. This allowed him to travel and collect the stories of all the lives he witnessed. I know which of my friends would enjoy the book and which would not. But how would I classify it? I'm not sure I care!!
Emperor TAR-1 have you ever written the psychology of a sentient vase?
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Emperor TAR-1 on 17:44 12 Mar 2003
No. I go so far, and no further. If you can show me a vase with anything that could act as a data processor, i might consider it.
Nah!
Perhaps you could categorize that one as "crack pot" literature?
No nasty e-mails! It's my sense of humor!
No. I go so far, and no further. If you can show me a vase with anything that could act as a data processor, i might consider it.
Nah!
Perhaps you could categorize that one as "crack pot" literature?
No nasty e-mails! It's my sense of humor!
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Brad on 20:25 12 Mar 2003
Gee Noonchild, now when I hear the childrens song: "I'm a Little Teapot" it will have a whole new meaning.
Gee Noonchild, now when I hear the childrens song: "I'm a Little Teapot" it will have a whole new meaning.
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by NoonChild on 18:28 14 Mar 2003
LOL
...and I never even told you about the murder committed with a frozen Iguana...
(FYI The book is [I]"The Collector Collector" by Tibor Fishcer)
LOL
...and I never even told you about the murder committed with a frozen Iguana...
(FYI The book is [I]"The Collector Collector" by Tibor Fishcer)
Sci-Fi A Genre or just a setting? - by Brad on 20:08 14 Mar 2003
Thanks. I might get that!
Thanks. I might get that!