High Fantasy or S&S - by Brad on 14:40 15 Mar 2003
I was wondering if anyone had good working definitions of High Fantasy vs. Swords & Sorcery? What makes them distinct from one another?
I was wondering if anyone had good working definitions of High Fantasy vs. Swords & Sorcery? What makes them distinct from one another?
High Fantasy or S&S - by Haruchai on 16:53 15 Mar 2003
In my opinion, "High Fantasy" involves a setting wherein there are elves, dwarves, gnomes, dragons, all kinds of mystical creatures and beings, and great items of immense magical power.
A standard D&D setting if you will.
"Sword and Sorcery" is, to me, much more Conanesque. Various races and subtypes of humans, but very little in the way of other races. Magic is less prominent and more feared.
I guess there isn't a whole lot of difference, technically, but there is in my mind.
Am I making sense?
In my opinion, "High Fantasy" involves a setting wherein there are elves, dwarves, gnomes, dragons, all kinds of mystical creatures and beings, and great items of immense magical power.
A standard D&D setting if you will.
"Sword and Sorcery" is, to me, much more Conanesque. Various races and subtypes of humans, but very little in the way of other races. Magic is less prominent and more feared.
I guess there isn't a whole lot of difference, technically, but there is in my mind.
Am I making sense?
High Fantasy or S&S - by Arislyn on 17:05 15 Mar 2003
That makes sense. *nods and smiles* I never really gave it much thought, but I'm thinking that Haru's definition pretty much breaks down along the same lines mine would.
That makes sense. *nods and smiles* I never really gave it much thought, but I'm thinking that Haru's definition pretty much breaks down along the same lines mine would.
High Fantasy or S&S - by Brad on 19:12 15 Mar 2003
Yeah that is not bad Haru. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it.
Seems like High Fantasy also has some high minded themes in it. Save the village, princess, kingdom, etc. As opposed to plain fantasy which could be about two street urchins roasting dead rats.
or something.
I think there is some thematic element there that needs to be added to the definition.
Yeah that is not bad Haru. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it.
Seems like High Fantasy also has some high minded themes in it. Save the village, princess, kingdom, etc. As opposed to plain fantasy which could be about two street urchins roasting dead rats.
or something.I think there is some thematic element there that needs to be added to the definition.
High Fantasy or S&S - by Kainja on 20:33 15 Mar 2003
Well I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time thinking about the definitions for Sword & Sorcery and High fantasy. I lump them together under the umbrella of Heroic Fantasy (HF), but I believe there are some specific differences. Below are the ways in which I categorize HF. This was first published in REHupa, and has appeared in a couple of other places too, with some modifications.
Heroic Fantasy, = To me, this is a general term for a type of fiction in which a heroic (usually bigger than life) figure uses either muscles or edged weapons (Swords, Axes, Spears) against bigger than life foes. The hero may be either male or female, but the focus is primarily on physical conflict. I divide Heroic Fantasy into the following four categories:
1. Sword & Sorcery: The emphasis is on conflict between the hero and supernatural forces such as gods, demons, or sorcerers. Most of these stories could not exist if the supernatural elements were removed. In addition, the hero in Sword & Sorcery is usually of the "Barbaric" type, although he or she may also possess sorcerous powers. The setting is most often a recognizable version of Earth, either in the distant past or the far future. Examples of Sword & Sorcery would include the Conan and Kull works of Robert E. Howard, the Kane books of Karl Edward Wagner, the Brak books of John Jakes, the Death Dealer books of James Silke, and the Kyrik and Kothar books of Gardner F. Fox. I would also include here the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Count Brass series by Michael Moorcock, though they stretch the definition a bit. This is one of my two favorite types of HF, and a primary area in which I collect.
2. Interplanetary Adventure: The emphasis here is on an Earthman (never an Earthwoman as far as I can tell) who is transported to another world where he must use his wits, his muscles, and his edged weapons (usually a sword) against a host of human and nonhuman foes. Supernatural forces may be present, but they play only a minor role. The hero is
usually not a barbarian, and, in fact, is most often quite chivalrous. The setting is an exotic alien world, often with multiple suns or multiple moons, and is populated by a variety of strange plants, animals, and intelligent beings. Examples of Interplanetary Adventure would include the John Carter books by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the Michael Kane books by Moorcock, the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers (Kenneth Bulmer), the Alan Morgan books by Gardner F. Fox, and the Kaldar stories by Edmond Hamilton. I would also put Robert Howard’s Almuric here. This is also the category into which my Taleran novels fall. This is the second of my two favorite types of HF, and another area in which I collect.
3. High Fantasy: The emphasis in this type of work is on a "Mythic" adventure, either a quest, or a conflict between the powers of light and dark. The hero is usually not bigger than life. In fact, he is often rather small and weak physically, though he usually has a tight knit band of followers or friends who help him. He also generally grows in power across the tale. Supernatural forces are integral to the story, and there is much less individual physical combat than in the above two types. The setting is a mythic world, usually an ancient Earth, that is populated by elves, dwarves, dragons, goblins, or recognizable variants of these. Dragons seem a particularly indispensable part. Examples of High Fantasy include Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy, and Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Though I haven't read them, I believe the Terry Brooks books would go here, as well as most of the books that you see on the shelves with dragons on the cover. This is my least favorite of the four types of Heroic Fantasy, though I do like the first two examples I listed above.
4. Heroic Historical: This is probably the rarest type of Heroic Fantasy now, though it was once much more popular. The emphasis is on a bigger than life hero who exists and fights within a recognizable period of history, such as the Greek, the Roman, or the Viking period. The main character is usually (though not always) fictional, but the historical
period is generally drawn with some accuracy. In other words, you will usually not see anachronisms and will not be asked to accept the common existence of phenomena that violate what we know of the history of Earth. For example, there won't regularly be flying dragons, flying galleons, flying horses, or flying humans. Supernatural forces often play a part but are usually not as important to the story as in Sword & Sorcery. The setting is Earth during a well known historical period. Examples of Heroic Historical include Rogue Sword and The Golden Slave by Poul Anderson, The Vikings
series by Neil Langholm, The Gladiator series by Andrew Quiller, the Falcon series by Mark Ramsay, and such books as Spartacus, and Captain Blood. I would also include Howard's Black Vulmea stories in this category, though they push the definition a bit. I enjoy this type more than High Fantasy but do not make any systematic effort to collect works in this area.
Well I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time thinking about the definitions for Sword & Sorcery and High fantasy. I lump them together under the umbrella of Heroic Fantasy (HF), but I believe there are some specific differences. Below are the ways in which I categorize HF. This was first published in REHupa, and has appeared in a couple of other places too, with some modifications.
Heroic Fantasy, = To me, this is a general term for a type of fiction in which a heroic (usually bigger than life) figure uses either muscles or edged weapons (Swords, Axes, Spears) against bigger than life foes. The hero may be either male or female, but the focus is primarily on physical conflict. I divide Heroic Fantasy into the following four categories:
1. Sword & Sorcery: The emphasis is on conflict between the hero and supernatural forces such as gods, demons, or sorcerers. Most of these stories could not exist if the supernatural elements were removed. In addition, the hero in Sword & Sorcery is usually of the "Barbaric" type, although he or she may also possess sorcerous powers. The setting is most often a recognizable version of Earth, either in the distant past or the far future. Examples of Sword & Sorcery would include the Conan and Kull works of Robert E. Howard, the Kane books of Karl Edward Wagner, the Brak books of John Jakes, the Death Dealer books of James Silke, and the Kyrik and Kothar books of Gardner F. Fox. I would also include here the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Count Brass series by Michael Moorcock, though they stretch the definition a bit. This is one of my two favorite types of HF, and a primary area in which I collect.
2. Interplanetary Adventure: The emphasis here is on an Earthman (never an Earthwoman as far as I can tell) who is transported to another world where he must use his wits, his muscles, and his edged weapons (usually a sword) against a host of human and nonhuman foes. Supernatural forces may be present, but they play only a minor role. The hero is
usually not a barbarian, and, in fact, is most often quite chivalrous. The setting is an exotic alien world, often with multiple suns or multiple moons, and is populated by a variety of strange plants, animals, and intelligent beings. Examples of Interplanetary Adventure would include the John Carter books by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the Michael Kane books by Moorcock, the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers (Kenneth Bulmer), the Alan Morgan books by Gardner F. Fox, and the Kaldar stories by Edmond Hamilton. I would also put Robert Howard’s Almuric here. This is also the category into which my Taleran novels fall. This is the second of my two favorite types of HF, and another area in which I collect.
3. High Fantasy: The emphasis in this type of work is on a "Mythic" adventure, either a quest, or a conflict between the powers of light and dark. The hero is usually not bigger than life. In fact, he is often rather small and weak physically, though he usually has a tight knit band of followers or friends who help him. He also generally grows in power across the tale. Supernatural forces are integral to the story, and there is much less individual physical combat than in the above two types. The setting is a mythic world, usually an ancient Earth, that is populated by elves, dwarves, dragons, goblins, or recognizable variants of these. Dragons seem a particularly indispensable part. Examples of High Fantasy include Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy, and Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Though I haven't read them, I believe the Terry Brooks books would go here, as well as most of the books that you see on the shelves with dragons on the cover. This is my least favorite of the four types of Heroic Fantasy, though I do like the first two examples I listed above.
4. Heroic Historical: This is probably the rarest type of Heroic Fantasy now, though it was once much more popular. The emphasis is on a bigger than life hero who exists and fights within a recognizable period of history, such as the Greek, the Roman, or the Viking period. The main character is usually (though not always) fictional, but the historical
period is generally drawn with some accuracy. In other words, you will usually not see anachronisms and will not be asked to accept the common existence of phenomena that violate what we know of the history of Earth. For example, there won't regularly be flying dragons, flying galleons, flying horses, or flying humans. Supernatural forces often play a part but are usually not as important to the story as in Sword & Sorcery. The setting is Earth during a well known historical period. Examples of Heroic Historical include Rogue Sword and The Golden Slave by Poul Anderson, The Vikings
series by Neil Langholm, The Gladiator series by Andrew Quiller, the Falcon series by Mark Ramsay, and such books as Spartacus, and Captain Blood. I would also include Howard's Black Vulmea stories in this category, though they push the definition a bit. I enjoy this type more than High Fantasy but do not make any systematic effort to collect works in this area.
High Fantasy or S&S - by din on 00:06 16 Mar 2003
kainja and haru came close to my first thoughts ..
sword and sorcery is two people duking it out; good guy vs. bad guy. high fantasy is when they use armies and lots of colorful assistants.
kainja and haru came close to my first thoughts ..
sword and sorcery is two people duking it out; good guy vs. bad guy. high fantasy is when they use armies and lots of colorful assistants.
High Fantasy or S&S - by Brad on 07:58 16 Mar 2003
Thanks Kainja, those are great definitions. Plus a meta category of Heroic Fantasy. I like that. Excellent.
The overall category Fantasy, is huge and this is only one branch. There are so many subcategories that it boggles the mind.
Thanks Kainja, those are great definitions. Plus a meta category of Heroic Fantasy. I like that. Excellent.
The overall category Fantasy, is huge and this is only one branch. There are so many subcategories that it boggles the mind.
High Fantasy or S&S - by Kainja on 12:14 16 Mar 2003
Yeah, Brad, the overall category of fantasy is just TOO big to really define, I think. AT least for me, categorizer that I am, I've never even made the attempt. It's truly a huge field.
Yeah, Brad, the overall category of fantasy is just TOO big to really define, I think. AT least for me, categorizer that I am, I've never even made the attempt. It's truly a huge field.
High Fantasy or S&S - by MoonHunter on 03:52 02 Jun 2003
This is the thread I was looking for when dealing with my definitions in Fantasy Taxonomy. It has now reappeared to my perceptions, so thank you.
This is the thread I was looking for when dealing with my definitions in Fantasy Taxonomy. It has now reappeared to my perceptions, so thank you.
High Fantasy or S&S - by Brad on 16:27 02 Jun 2003
Yeah I really like Kainja's definitions.
Yeah I really like Kainja's definitions.