Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Arislyn on 11:52 24 Jan 2003
I was reading a review of a hefty book of feats put out by Mongoose Publishing ( http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7933.html ) and thought I would take the time to ask everyone their opinions about the whole feat thing.
I'm kind of torn, to be honest. For the most part, I feel like they give the players far too much power far too quickly. It has become so easy to create a quisenart character that it's sad. However, I do adore the way you can customize your PC into something entirely different from your average fighter/mage/thief by using them.
What do all of you think?
I was reading a review of a hefty book of feats put out by Mongoose Publishing ( http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_7933.html ) and thought I would take the time to ask everyone their opinions about the whole feat thing.
I'm kind of torn, to be honest. For the most part, I feel like they give the players far too much power far too quickly. It has become so easy to create a quisenart character that it's sad. However, I do adore the way you can customize your PC into something entirely different from your average fighter/mage/thief by using them.
What do all of you think?
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Brad on 16:36 24 Jan 2003
I'm not real thrilled with the feats thing. Honestly the more I llok at 3Ed, the less I like it.
However, I am a known 1Ed. reactionary.
(LOL! Great thread title.)
I'm not real thrilled with the feats thing. Honestly the more I llok at 3Ed, the less I like it.
However, I am a known 1Ed. reactionary.
(LOL! Great thread title.)
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Haruchai on 01:00 25 Jan 2003
Hmmm....
I agree that feats in 3e allow one to make a hack-n-slash player giggle with glee. Overall though, I good feat is balanced within the system. Granted, I've made more than my fair share of abilities that are not balanced, mostly in fighting styles themselves.
I happen to enjoy several different styles of play, though I do tend towards "power playing". Feats do make this much easier to do in 3e, though the right proficiencies, especially in 2e, could do the same thing (high mastery and grand mastery anyone?).
I have seen a lot of players simply want power, power, and more power. After awhile it can be annoying, but with the proper roleplaying aspect, I think it fits the flavor of the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. D&D is a game of heroes. Characters are supposed to be able to do wondrous and mighty things. Despite whatever background and upbringing the character may have, the game is designed so that they gain power. The game, at its very core, is a tactical combat game. That's how it started. Now, there are other, more tactical and rules-heavy games to simulate combat, but they don't have the flavor nor the capacity for roleplaying that D&D has. I believe that feats in 3e allow, as Ari said, a much more customizable and flexible character. But it should be pointed out that no system, no matter how well balanced, is without its flaws.
There will always be something that can be abused.
However, this brings me back to what I was saying earlier. A game of heroes. Think of Conan, King Arthur and his Knights along with Merlin, Gandalf and the Fellowship... Many people would say that those characters would be too powerful, thus no fun to play, in a D&D game. I just don't happen to agree. You could probably pick any one of those famous characters, and I could give you a feat chain that they have mastered.
I've changed my rules at my tabletop game to allow more feats, and plan to implement that into the online game as well. Heroes, legends... that is what you play in D&D.
Viva la feats!!
(The above statements have not been made under duress, but I take no responsibility for any person trying to accomplish said feats or heroism because of it. Professional roleplayer on closed course, do not try this at home).
Hmmm....
I agree that feats in 3e allow one to make a hack-n-slash player giggle with glee. Overall though, I good feat is balanced within the system. Granted, I've made more than my fair share of abilities that are not balanced, mostly in fighting styles themselves.
I happen to enjoy several different styles of play, though I do tend towards "power playing". Feats do make this much easier to do in 3e, though the right proficiencies, especially in 2e, could do the same thing (high mastery and grand mastery anyone?).
I have seen a lot of players simply want power, power, and more power. After awhile it can be annoying, but with the proper roleplaying aspect, I think it fits the flavor of the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. D&D is a game of heroes. Characters are supposed to be able to do wondrous and mighty things. Despite whatever background and upbringing the character may have, the game is designed so that they gain power. The game, at its very core, is a tactical combat game. That's how it started. Now, there are other, more tactical and rules-heavy games to simulate combat, but they don't have the flavor nor the capacity for roleplaying that D&D has. I believe that feats in 3e allow, as Ari said, a much more customizable and flexible character. But it should be pointed out that no system, no matter how well balanced, is without its flaws.
There will always be something that can be abused.
However, this brings me back to what I was saying earlier. A game of heroes. Think of Conan, King Arthur and his Knights along with Merlin, Gandalf and the Fellowship... Many people would say that those characters would be too powerful, thus no fun to play, in a D&D game. I just don't happen to agree. You could probably pick any one of those famous characters, and I could give you a feat chain that they have mastered.
I've changed my rules at my tabletop game to allow more feats, and plan to implement that into the online game as well. Heroes, legends... that is what you play in D&D.
Viva la feats!!
(The above statements have not been made under duress, but I take no responsibility for any person trying to accomplish said feats or heroism because of it. Professional roleplayer on closed course, do not try this at home).
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by MoonHunter on 04:20 25 Jan 2003
I like feats, abuses and all.
Feats make a game system basically designed in the 70s the update it needs to make it a modern game.
Most modern games center around their "toys" or "crunchy bits" the cool abilities the characters have. For all their talk about "story telling" and the "art of roleplaying", the White Wolf players are the worst offender of this.
There are things that skills do not cover (or do not cover well). Feats cover those in D&D. White Wolf has Gifts and Disciplines and... abilities in Exalted whos name I forget. Hero has Perks and Powers, even in modern games. Fuzion, has them too. Corps. Why do we crucify 3ed D&D when every other game has these kinds of issues as well?
(well except that is it fun.. but other than that?)
Yes, the feats are a bit over the top for a realistic game. However, who ever thought that D&D is a realistic simulation of any kind of reality? If you do, I have this really cool bridge I would like to sell you.
Yes, several combinations are not as balanced as they could be. Some, though possible for a 3rd level character, I would not allow before lets say 8th. Just because a character is legally constructed, there is no rule that says you have to accept it in your campaign (except in Hackmaster.. no I'm not kidding).
3rd Ed is not perfect, but it is sooo much better than 2nd Ed and 1st Ed, and BD&D, AD&D, ED&D, that it makes my head spin.
Thoughts?
I like feats, abuses and all.
Feats make a game system basically designed in the 70s the update it needs to make it a modern game.
Most modern games center around their "toys" or "crunchy bits" the cool abilities the characters have. For all their talk about "story telling" and the "art of roleplaying", the White Wolf players are the worst offender of this.
There are things that skills do not cover (or do not cover well). Feats cover those in D&D. White Wolf has Gifts and Disciplines and... abilities in Exalted whos name I forget. Hero has Perks and Powers, even in modern games. Fuzion, has them too. Corps. Why do we crucify 3ed D&D when every other game has these kinds of issues as well?
(well except that is it fun.. but other than that?)
Yes, the feats are a bit over the top for a realistic game. However, who ever thought that D&D is a realistic simulation of any kind of reality? If you do, I have this really cool bridge I would like to sell you.
Yes, several combinations are not as balanced as they could be. Some, though possible for a 3rd level character, I would not allow before lets say 8th. Just because a character is legally constructed, there is no rule that says you have to accept it in your campaign (except in Hackmaster.. no I'm not kidding).
3rd Ed is not perfect, but it is sooo much better than 2nd Ed and 1st Ed, and BD&D, AD&D, ED&D, that it makes my head spin.
Thoughts?
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Arislyn on 17:58 25 Jan 2003
Oh, I never professed that D&D was realistic or that it needed to be. I don't remember mentioning realism anywhere. In fact, a highly realistic game is even more annoying than one where the players manage to abuse power. When you have to think about each and every little aspect of what happens, it gets to be a pain in the butt and it bogs down gameplay. (What is the realistic way to handle acid splatter? What is the realistic way handle scatter effects? What is the realistic way to handle mutations?.....) Who cares? Roll some dice and get on with it.
And, Haru is correct. D&D is a game of heroes. But, heroes are not perfect. They do face challenges and hardships, they fall on their butts, they make mistakes and get the crap beaten out of them repeatedly. It's the fact they they get back on their feet and continue to fight, to persevere in the face of adversity when others would fail, that makes them heroes....not power level. I do agree that a hero needs to be able to do more and be more powerful than average, otherwise they won't survive the encounters that they must face. But, in my opinion, there is a line there where you go from being a powerful character to a ridiculously powerful character that shouldn't be crossed. And, of course, as MoonHunter said, that's where the DM needs to step in and either allow or disallow what the player is trying to do with their character.
And, yes, all games have something that can be abused. However, it's more efficient to use a single game as an example rather than pull out the flaws of every game in existence. :P
Now, as I said, I love the fact that you can customize your character. I was thrilled when Player's Options came out for D&D because they did allow you to make your character a bit more customized, but that pales in the face of 3E. If I want to make a mage who kicks ass with a bow, I can. If I want to make a barbarian who is fascinated by Chondathan culture and actually has extensive knowledge of it, I can. You are no longer confimed within the definition of "warrior" or "thief" or "priest" anymore because of these feats. In this regard, they are so cool and, I must admit, I probably will pick up the book that was reviewed at RPG.net because of this aspect of feats.
Oh, I never professed that D&D was realistic or that it needed to be. I don't remember mentioning realism anywhere. In fact, a highly realistic game is even more annoying than one where the players manage to abuse power. When you have to think about each and every little aspect of what happens, it gets to be a pain in the butt and it bogs down gameplay. (What is the realistic way to handle acid splatter? What is the realistic way handle scatter effects? What is the realistic way to handle mutations?.....) Who cares? Roll some dice and get on with it.
And, Haru is correct. D&D is a game of heroes. But, heroes are not perfect. They do face challenges and hardships, they fall on their butts, they make mistakes and get the crap beaten out of them repeatedly. It's the fact they they get back on their feet and continue to fight, to persevere in the face of adversity when others would fail, that makes them heroes....not power level. I do agree that a hero needs to be able to do more and be more powerful than average, otherwise they won't survive the encounters that they must face. But, in my opinion, there is a line there where you go from being a powerful character to a ridiculously powerful character that shouldn't be crossed. And, of course, as MoonHunter said, that's where the DM needs to step in and either allow or disallow what the player is trying to do with their character.
And, yes, all games have something that can be abused. However, it's more efficient to use a single game as an example rather than pull out the flaws of every game in existence. :P
Now, as I said, I love the fact that you can customize your character. I was thrilled when Player's Options came out for D&D because they did allow you to make your character a bit more customized, but that pales in the face of 3E. If I want to make a mage who kicks ass with a bow, I can. If I want to make a barbarian who is fascinated by Chondathan culture and actually has extensive knowledge of it, I can. You are no longer confimed within the definition of "warrior" or "thief" or "priest" anymore because of these feats. In this regard, they are so cool and, I must admit, I probably will pick up the book that was reviewed at RPG.net because of this aspect of feats.
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Haruchai on 18:20 25 Jan 2003
*smiles* Now, as you never said that you were speaking in realistic terms, I never said that heroes are perfect. Believe me, my players can attest to the fact that no matter how powerful they are, they get their butts whupped plenty often.
I agree that characters should not be ridiculously powerful, but I still do not think that they should be crossed. The game is normally set up so that the characters win. Except for re-occuring villains, most monsters are one-shot and never see more than one fight. Of course, this all depends on your players.
It is the DM's job to make sure that all the players are happy. The roleplayers ned to get to roleplay, and the power-players need to slay things. Ultimately, if they don't, then both types of players will simply game elsewhere.
I think we all agree that feats can be abused. *smiles* Add on top of those feats magical equipment, class skills or special abilities, and it can get very ridiculous very quickly. If anyone would be interested I could post some very tweaked "smack-down" characters. EvilLuke could too. It can make it readily apparent how one can legally twist the system.
*smiles* Now, as you never said that you were speaking in realistic terms, I never said that heroes are perfect. Believe me, my players can attest to the fact that no matter how powerful they are, they get their butts whupped plenty often.
I agree that characters should not be ridiculously powerful, but I still do not think that they should be crossed. The game is normally set up so that the characters win. Except for re-occuring villains, most monsters are one-shot and never see more than one fight. Of course, this all depends on your players.
It is the DM's job to make sure that all the players are happy. The roleplayers ned to get to roleplay, and the power-players need to slay things. Ultimately, if they don't, then both types of players will simply game elsewhere.
I think we all agree that feats can be abused. *smiles* Add on top of those feats magical equipment, class skills or special abilities, and it can get very ridiculous very quickly. If anyone would be interested I could post some very tweaked "smack-down" characters. EvilLuke could too. It can make it readily apparent how one can legally twist the system.
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Arislyn on 18:26 25 Jan 2003
Touche. My bad, Haru.
I think we've just touched on my major gripe with power players, is all.
| Quote |
| *smiles* Now, as you never said that you were speaking in realistic terms, I never said that heroes are perfect. Believe me, my players can attest to the fact that no matter how powerful they are, they get their butts whupped plenty often. |
Touche. My bad, Haru.
I think we've just touched on my major gripe with power players, is all.
Feats! Feats! Feats! - by Haruchai on 20:08 25 Jan 2003
*chuckles* No harm no foul, Ari! We're both just expressing opinions and viewpoints.
I like to powerplay, but I also love to roleplay. At least I view myself that way. I guess that's why I like to DM: so I get to play all those different roles and such, as well as the kick-ass villains.
WheeHoo!
*chuckles* No harm no foul, Ari! We're both just expressing opinions and viewpoints.
I like to powerplay, but I also love to roleplay. At least I view myself that way. I guess that's why I like to DM: so I get to play all those different roles and such, as well as the kick-ass villains.
WheeHoo!