Care to check this out? - by Meriadoc988 on 10:19 09 Mar 2003
I'm new here. I know thats a discouraging way to start a topic, but I've been to many other forums before so have no fear. I know how it all works. I just wanted to know if anyone could help me in one of two ways...
1. I've been searching this site for a forum where you can ask questions about LOTR. Does one even exist here? If it does, point me in the right direction.
2. Or, simply tell me the answer to the question I have which is why I want to find that forum in the first place. Where can I find in text form, or another form, Samwise's entire speech that he gives at the end of The Two Towers?
I'm new here. I know thats a discouraging way to start a topic, but I've been to many other forums before so have no fear. I know how it all works. I just wanted to know if anyone could help me in one of two ways...
1. I've been searching this site for a forum where you can ask questions about LOTR. Does one even exist here? If it does, point me in the right direction.
2. Or, simply tell me the answer to the question I have which is why I want to find that forum in the first place. Where can I find in text form, or another form, Samwise's entire speech that he gives at the end of The Two Towers?
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 12:08 09 Mar 2003
Hi Meriadoc, welcome to the forums.
1. The Fantasy forum doubles for LOTR. We used to have a seperate LOTR board but it was not getting enough use so it got consolidated.
2. I did a search at Ring Codex and found one transcript site http://www.seatofkings.cjb.net/
I don't know that they have the specific text you are looking for but it looks like they do have the Two Towers transcribed.
I hope that helps!
| Quote (Meriadoc988 @ Mar. 09 2003,07:19) |
| I'm new here. I know thats a discouraging way to start a topic, but I've been to many other forums before so have no fear. I know how it all works. I just wanted to know if anyone could help me in one of two ways... 1. I've been searching this site for a forum where you can ask questions about LOTR. Does one even exist here? If it does, point me in the right direction. 2. Or, simply tell me the answer to the question I have which is why I want to find that forum in the first place. Where can I find in text form, or another form, Samwise's entire speech that he gives at the end of The Two Towers? |
Hi Meriadoc, welcome to the forums.
1. The Fantasy forum doubles for LOTR. We used to have a seperate LOTR board but it was not getting enough use so it got consolidated.
2. I did a search at Ring Codex and found one transcript site http://www.seatofkings.cjb.net/
I don't know that they have the specific text you are looking for but it looks like they do have the Two Towers transcribed.
I hope that helps!
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 12:10 09 Mar 2003
Moved from Members Lounge.
Moved from Members Lounge.
Care to check this out? - by NoonChild on 19:00 09 Mar 2003
Lord of The Rings - loved the book(s), but I'm ambivalent about the films, although all cudos to spec FX
Lord of The Rings - loved the book(s), but I'm ambivalent about the films, although all cudos to spec FX
Care to check this out? - by MoonHunter on 01:47 11 Mar 2003
I loved the movies. While they did remove some things that Tolkein purists are decrying (who cares about Tom Bombadil anyways if you didn't read the Simerlion?), they really faithful adaptions. They are pushing fantasy into the mainstream so you can proudly admit that you are a fantasy fiction fan, rather than hide the fact to avoid the geek label.
I loved the movies. While they did remove some things that Tolkein purists are decrying (who cares about Tom Bombadil anyways if you didn't read the Simerlion?), they really faithful adaptions. They are pushing fantasy into the mainstream so you can proudly admit that you are a fantasy fiction fan, rather than hide the fact to avoid the geek label.
Care to check this out? - by Arislyn on 07:30 11 Mar 2003
On the extended CD version of Fellowship, they talked about the cuts they made to story. Most of what they left out they had to in order to make it work as a film. While everything that Tolkien wrote was wonderful and flowed well when written, the mechanics of getting it all to a visual medium called for a few changes. More than anything, they simply had a time constraint to work with. Not many people are willing to sit through much more than 2.5-3 hours worth of movie, so you have to be able to boil everything down to the necessaties and go from there. I think Jackson did a fabulous job of that. Sure, there were a few changes, but it was all kept in the true Tolkien spirit.
On the extended CD version of Fellowship, they talked about the cuts they made to story. Most of what they left out they had to in order to make it work as a film. While everything that Tolkien wrote was wonderful and flowed well when written, the mechanics of getting it all to a visual medium called for a few changes. More than anything, they simply had a time constraint to work with. Not many people are willing to sit through much more than 2.5-3 hours worth of movie, so you have to be able to boil everything down to the necessaties and go from there. I think Jackson did a fabulous job of that. Sure, there were a few changes, but it was all kept in the true Tolkien spirit.
Care to check this out? - by NoonChild on 16:56 11 Mar 2003
I think the scale of Tolkein's books perhaps means they are more perfectly suited to a seiries format then a feature film. Rather than trying to streach a film in to enough ideas for a spin off series (like so many have tried) Tolkein offers the detail and strong compelling story that a respectable series needs. A missed oppertunity by the makers of the animation version that was never finished, who started well, it actually scared me, as the black riders did in the books.
I think the scale of Tolkein's books perhaps means they are more perfectly suited to a seiries format then a feature film. Rather than trying to streach a film in to enough ideas for a spin off series (like so many have tried) Tolkein offers the detail and strong compelling story that a respectable series needs. A missed oppertunity by the makers of the animation version that was never finished, who started well, it actually scared me, as the black riders did in the books.
Care to check this out? - by Kainja on 00:05 12 Mar 2003
Regarding LOTR, which JRR inspired series do people consider the best? My own personal favorite, and I have to admit I've not read a whole lot of Tolkien influencd stuff, is Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series.
Regarding LOTR, which JRR inspired series do people consider the best? My own personal favorite, and I have to admit I've not read a whole lot of Tolkien influencd stuff, is Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series.
Care to check this out? - by Haruchai on 01:38 12 Mar 2003
Thomas Covenant (Chronicles of the Unbeliever)...
I loved that series, and own every one of those books. I always try to recommend them whenever I can.
Thomas Covenant (Chronicles of the Unbeliever)...
I loved that series, and own every one of those books. I always try to recommend them whenever I can.
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 20:46 12 Mar 2003
Thomas Covenant, especially the first 3 books, is great. Donaldson also wrote a two book series the first book was "The Mirror of Her Dreams" it was pretty good.
I also really like The Black Company series by Glen Cook.
Thomas Covenant, especially the first 3 books, is great. Donaldson also wrote a two book series the first book was "The Mirror of Her Dreams" it was pretty good.
I also really like The Black Company series by Glen Cook.
Care to check this out? - by MoonHunter on 02:27 13 Mar 2003
I do have to admit to really liking the Mirror of Her Dreams. It and its companion book were excellent fiction.
While I read the first three Thomas Covenant books, can you really like and follow the protagonist who rapes someone in the first few chapters? (I know, I know... he thought it was all just a dream... he spent the rest of the series trying to make up for it... yadda.. yadda... justifying yadda... ). Most women I know dropped the books like hot rocks after that.
Tolkein set the mark we measure all fantasy novels from. He defined the genres and we are stuck with them (Elves, Dwarves, magik, etc).
I do have to admit to really liking the Mirror of Her Dreams. It and its companion book were excellent fiction.
While I read the first three Thomas Covenant books, can you really like and follow the protagonist who rapes someone in the first few chapters? (I know, I know... he thought it was all just a dream... he spent the rest of the series trying to make up for it... yadda.. yadda... justifying yadda... ). Most women I know dropped the books like hot rocks after that.
Tolkein set the mark we measure all fantasy novels from. He defined the genres and we are stuck with them (Elves, Dwarves, magik, etc).
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 09:21 13 Mar 2003
The thing I liked about the Covenant books was the world building and the supporting characters. That is why I did not like books 4 - 6: the characters I liked were gone and the world I loved destroyed.
Yeah we peaked early and have been trying to live up to it ever since.
Besides Glen Cook two other series that I very highly recommend:
Elizabeth Moon: "The Deed of Paksinarion"
Raymond Feist: The first 4 books of his Riftwar cycle.
The thing I liked about the Covenant books was the world building and the supporting characters. That is why I did not like books 4 - 6: the characters I liked were gone and the world I loved destroyed.
| Quote |
| Tolkein set the mark we measure all fantasy novels from. He defined the genres and we are stuck with them (Elves, Dwarves, magik, etc). |
Yeah we peaked early and have been trying to live up to it ever since.
Besides Glen Cook two other series that I very highly recommend:
Elizabeth Moon: "The Deed of Paksinarion"
Raymond Feist: The first 4 books of his Riftwar cycle.
Care to check this out? - by Arislyn on 10:10 13 Mar 2003
The word "stuck" has some fairly negative connotation to it. Do you feel particularly limited by the way Tolkein defined fantasy?
| Quote |
| Tolkein set the mark we measure all fantasy novels from. He defined the genres and we are stuck with them (Elves, Dwarves, magik, etc). |
The word "stuck" has some fairly negative connotation to it. Do you feel particularly limited by the way Tolkein defined fantasy?
Care to check this out? - by Kainja on 11:47 13 Mar 2003
Two things,
About the Black Company books, I absolutely agree. Excellent stuff, though I tend to classify those more as sword and sorcery than high fantasy.
About the Thomas Covenant series and the rape and other characteristics of Thomas. This was the only series ever where I kept reading and enjoying the books even though I couldn't personally stand the lead character. Covenant was not a sympathetic character, but as someone said, the world was so beautiful and the supporting characters interesting enough to keep me reading anyway.
Two things,
About the Black Company books, I absolutely agree. Excellent stuff, though I tend to classify those more as sword and sorcery than high fantasy.
About the Thomas Covenant series and the rape and other characteristics of Thomas. This was the only series ever where I kept reading and enjoying the books even though I couldn't personally stand the lead character. Covenant was not a sympathetic character, but as someone said, the world was so beautiful and the supporting characters interesting enough to keep me reading anyway.
Care to check this out? - by Draven on 03:23 02 Apr 2003
I think what Tolkein did was create a realistic fantasy genre. If one reads the Silmarillion it becomes clear that the man lived his world. As a scholar I tried to draw comparisons between his world and ours only to realise that is futile, Tolkein didnt pave the way for future fantasy writers, he set a president for thm to reach, very few have. Robert Jordan certainly has. But let me know what you think?!
I think what Tolkein did was create a realistic fantasy genre. If one reads the Silmarillion it becomes clear that the man lived his world. As a scholar I tried to draw comparisons between his world and ours only to realise that is futile, Tolkein didnt pave the way for future fantasy writers, he set a president for thm to reach, very few have. Robert Jordan certainly has. But let me know what you think?!
Care to check this out? - by MoonHunter on 06:34 02 Apr 2003
Tolkein set all the tropes for the modern fantasy novel. The reason all books are compared to Tolkein is that he defined the genre, much the way all Cyberpunk books are compared to Gibson. Unfair? Perhaps. Worth doing? Not always.
Yes, he did "Live" his world, much the same way M.A.Barker does for Tekumel. Does that make his works better reads or he himself a touch neurotic? I know a lot of Gamers who "live" their game worlds (normally table top GMs and MMORPG designers/ gamers), who live their world but do not produce epic production.
Tolkein set all the tropes for the modern fantasy novel. The reason all books are compared to Tolkein is that he defined the genre, much the way all Cyberpunk books are compared to Gibson. Unfair? Perhaps. Worth doing? Not always.
Yes, he did "Live" his world, much the same way M.A.Barker does for Tekumel. Does that make his works better reads or he himself a touch neurotic? I know a lot of Gamers who "live" their game worlds (normally table top GMs and MMORPG designers/ gamers), who live their world but do not produce epic production.
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 14:33 03 Apr 2003
Tolkien taps into some very powerful themes for the West and also manages to incorporate, The Quest and Coming of Age (which is really what Frodo's story is about) themes into a very rich worldscape.
I agree, Tolkien set the standard and very few have matched him. But keep in mind that Tolkien did not hammer out his story under the gun of a modern publishing contrant deadline. His books were very much labors of love and intellectual excersizes.
I suspect that there are other high fantasy manuscripts out there that are nearly as good, or perhaps as good, as Tolkien but have been turned down by the few SF/F publishing houses that remain for purely commercial reasons. I think with the advent of POD and ebook publishing we are going to start seeing more of these manuscripts get published. The big challenge will be for the general public to actually hear about them.
Tolkien taps into some very powerful themes for the West and also manages to incorporate, The Quest and Coming of Age (which is really what Frodo's story is about) themes into a very rich worldscape.
I agree, Tolkien set the standard and very few have matched him. But keep in mind that Tolkien did not hammer out his story under the gun of a modern publishing contrant deadline. His books were very much labors of love and intellectual excersizes.
I suspect that there are other high fantasy manuscripts out there that are nearly as good, or perhaps as good, as Tolkien but have been turned down by the few SF/F publishing houses that remain for purely commercial reasons. I think with the advent of POD and ebook publishing we are going to start seeing more of these manuscripts get published. The big challenge will be for the general public to actually hear about them.
Care to check this out? - by Draven on 05:16 04 Apr 2003
I agree, but these writers need a platform on which they can release their works, so you or anyone you might know, know a of a platform like this?
I agree, but these writers need a platform on which they can release their works, so you or anyone you might know, know a of a platform like this?
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 16:24 04 Apr 2003
Draven, what do you mean by "platform"? What kind of thing did you have in mind?
| Quote (Draven @ April 04 2003,02:16) |
| I agree, but these writers need a platform on which they can release their works, so you or anyone you might know, know a of a platform like this? |
Draven, what do you mean by "platform"? What kind of thing did you have in mind?
Care to check this out? - by Draven on 18:07 04 Apr 2003
Well I would think of some sort of publishing company, or website... perhaps a "new author" book forum?
Well I would think of some sort of publishing company, or website... perhaps a "new author" book forum?
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 15:22 05 Apr 2003
Well there are two venues for this sort of thing:
1. At Unified Scifi Forums (here):
This is pretty easily accomplished just by authors adding the URL to either their book site or their author site to their forum profile and/or signature line, then make posts. People check out the members making good, interesting and informative posts.
I have never been keen on having a forum set aside for "announcement" type posts because then we get every MLM and get-rich-quick scheme, porn and casino post imaginable and any new thread that is started is only going to be readily available for only 30 days.
In short what we seem to end up with is a lot of one time posts. That is not really community building.
2. To the World:
We provide a lot of links to resources for authors to promote their websites. Most of the links at the bottom of the forums are SF/F/H directories that are affiliated with these forums. They all offer free listings for authors sites and also list even more resources for promoting books and websites. Long term, they provide a lot more traffic than a one time forum posting would do.
I really think every author should have a official website this acts as a 24/7 brochure and dust jacket blurb and is invaluable to book promotion efforts on the Web. The site does not have to be fancy and can be on a free host and it will still be very effective.
Well there are two venues for this sort of thing:
1. At Unified Scifi Forums (here):
This is pretty easily accomplished just by authors adding the URL to either their book site or their author site to their forum profile and/or signature line, then make posts. People check out the members making good, interesting and informative posts.
I have never been keen on having a forum set aside for "announcement" type posts because then we get every MLM and get-rich-quick scheme, porn and casino post imaginable and any new thread that is started is only going to be readily available for only 30 days.
In short what we seem to end up with is a lot of one time posts. That is not really community building.
2. To the World:
We provide a lot of links to resources for authors to promote their websites. Most of the links at the bottom of the forums are SF/F/H directories that are affiliated with these forums. They all offer free listings for authors sites and also list even more resources for promoting books and websites. Long term, they provide a lot more traffic than a one time forum posting would do.
I really think every author should have a official website this acts as a 24/7 brochure and dust jacket blurb and is invaluable to book promotion efforts on the Web. The site does not have to be fancy and can be on a free host and it will still be very effective.
Care to check this out? - by holsfisher on 09:25 21 Apr 2003
Jumping back a little in this conversation, I felt that Dart-Thorntons 'The Ill Made Mute' was very Tolkein-esque, especially in the imagary and the reflection of folk tales etc... also, it was very easy to identify with the characters, a good start for people not quite ready yet for the scope of LOTR.
Jumping back a little in this conversation, I felt that Dart-Thorntons 'The Ill Made Mute' was very Tolkein-esque, especially in the imagary and the reflection of folk tales etc... also, it was very easy to identify with the characters, a good start for people not quite ready yet for the scope of LOTR.
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 19:28 21 Apr 2003
Yeah, I just read the blurb on it at Amazon and it sounds pretty good.
Yeah, I just read the blurb on it at Amazon and it sounds pretty good.
Care to check this out? - by holsfisher on 17:25 22 Apr 2003
It is, but it does assume at least a basic knowledge of English/European folklore, to fully appreciate some of the finer implications.
It is, but it does assume at least a basic knowledge of English/European folklore, to fully appreciate some of the finer implications.
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 18:54 22 Apr 2003
Thanks. I might check it out.
Thanks. I might check it out.
Care to check this out? - by Kyran Darkeye on 16:00 27 Jun 2003
Really tell me what isn't inspired by Tolkien? every single book or author that comes out is held to that standard, one that we don't really expect it to be as good as. Personally I love to see fantasy that is built entirely of new elements. No dwarfs no elfs, just people some who use magic some who don't but must deal with whatever is handed them, ordinary people who do spectacular things in spectacular situations. Mostly because I can see myself in those roles. don't get me wrong i like other races (not a comment about human races) but i just try to avoid old feeling stories with no original content.
just an opinion.
Really tell me what isn't inspired by Tolkien? every single book or author that comes out is held to that standard, one that we don't really expect it to be as good as. Personally I love to see fantasy that is built entirely of new elements. No dwarfs no elfs, just people some who use magic some who don't but must deal with whatever is handed them, ordinary people who do spectacular things in spectacular situations. Mostly because I can see myself in those roles. don't get me wrong i like other races (not a comment about human races) but i just try to avoid old feeling stories with no original content.
just an opinion.
Care to check this out? - by MoonHunter on 02:10 28 Jun 2003
Empire of the Petal Throne by MA Barker...
The books, by Barker, Man of Gold and Flame Song are painfully non Tolkein derived Fantasy
Heck Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series fits that requirement. No "standard non-humans" and very few Tolkein Tropes.
Most of the Fantasy Tropes we hold dear are based on Tolkeins work. Yet there are many books that break that series.
Empire of the Petal Throne by MA Barker...
The books, by Barker, Man of Gold and Flame Song are painfully non Tolkein derived Fantasy
Heck Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series fits that requirement. No "standard non-humans" and very few Tolkein Tropes.
Most of the Fantasy Tropes we hold dear are based on Tolkeins work. Yet there are many books that break that series.
Care to check this out? - by Brad on 10:03 28 Jun 2003
Being comparable to Tolkien is both a goal to inspire excellence but also a cross every fantasy writer has to bare.
Another part of the problem is that Tolkien used a lot of Northern European myths and archtypes for his world. This is part of why Tolkien can resonate so deeply.
So anyone that uses those same, myths as a starting point runs the risk of comparison too.
I agree on the Empire of the Petal Throne books by M.A.R. Barker. I read Man of Gold and enjoyed it. Others might not, but there were a lot of good ideas in that book. And the world is definitely not Tolkien.
Being comparable to Tolkien is both a goal to inspire excellence but also a cross every fantasy writer has to bare.
Another part of the problem is that Tolkien used a lot of Northern European myths and archtypes for his world. This is part of why Tolkien can resonate so deeply.
So anyone that uses those same, myths as a starting point runs the risk of comparison too.
I agree on the Empire of the Petal Throne books by M.A.R. Barker. I read Man of Gold and enjoyed it. Others might not, but there were a lot of good ideas in that book. And the world is definitely not Tolkien.